Shattered Haven (Campaign Setting)

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:09 am

Mean time to death by Crit is something like 35 attacks.

So if 100 attacks are administered to the party you can realistically expect 2 deaths.

Ghostwheel · Post by **Ghostwheel** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:11 am

Here's the list Kaelik, only from the MM. I'm sure I could find tons more going through the other MMs.

Mordin Solus voice: Ah. Parameters. *sniff* Very good.

Alrighty, let's take a look at some of the monsters that litter the MM.

Basic races with class levels.
Animated objects
Assassin Vine
Azer
Barghest
Blink Dog
Bugbear
Centaur
Choker
Cloaker
Cockatrice
Darkmantle
Derro
Deinonychus (Dinosaur)
Dire Ape, Badger, Bat, Boar, Lion, Rat, Weasel, Wolf, Wolverine
Displacer Beast
Low-CR dragons (though they might have the [Awesome] descriptor, unsure)
Giant Eagle (suppose you need readied attacks to deal with this)
Elementals
Drow
Ettercap
Formian Worker, Warrior
Fungus, Violet
Githyanki, Githzerai
Gnoll
Goblin
Golem, Flesh (Perhaps after a few feats past level 6)
Grick
Griffon
Grimlock
Hell Hound
Hippogriff
Hobgoblin
Homunculus
Howler
Kobold
Krenshar
Kuo-toa
Lizardfolk
Locathah
Magmin
Minotaur
Ogre
Orc
Otyugh
Giant Owl
Owlbear
Pegasus
Planetouched
Pseudodragon
Sahuagin
Salamander, Flamebrother
Sea Cat
Shocker Lizard
Skeleton
Skum
Spider Eater
Stirge
Thoqqua
Tojanida, Juvenile & Adult
Troglodyte
Troll
Winter Wolf
Worg
Zombie
Various animals of the right CR
Various vermin of the right CR

If you see any monster that's usually agreed to be overpowered for its level, please mention it so we can have a fair estimate of actual lethality, rather than exploiting my oversight? Thank you. Also, these should be fairly straight-up combats--we're not looking at potential lethality of shenaniganry, but of how a monster can kill a character on his own through abilities/attacks/etc in 1-2 rounds. For example, a howler using its howl ability and running away so that characters slowly die of wisdom damage wouldn't be a fair showing since they could do that just as easily in a normal game.

I also wanted to add a number of creatures that have DR, but since this is a low-magic setting and people generally don't have too much in the way of magic, I refrained from doing so. Still, a number of lycanthropes, devils, demons, archons, mephits, and the like could probably be used if DR is removed.

Something to remember: It's not actually 1v1 in games. It's 1v4. Show me that a monster can kill one person on its own in at least 2 rounds when using average damage or so, preferably 1, say against the fighter we used before in full plate? Assuming that you automatically crit twice and roll max damage both times isn't going to cut it.

cthulu: How do you mean? Could you please clarify?

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:14 am

Oh fuck I misread the rules.

Re-doing my damage calcs.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:17 am

cthulhu wrote:if the ogre crits the fighter

Ghost's houserules remove critical hits from the game. The ogre never crits.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:23 am

That's what I read wrong. Doing it right this time

Re doing the stats 'for reals'

DPR For the fighter is .7*(7+5+2+3.5-5-(10*0.4)) = 5.88

DPR For the Ogre = .65*(9+3+3-8) = 4.55

Fighter Average rounds to win= 7.14

Ogre Average Rounds to win= 4.4

Fighter is fucked.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:25 am

However, my point is still correct, a maximum roll by the orge has a VERY high chance of just smooshing the fighter, due to the adding as a bonus to damage of the difference between defense and the total to hit roll.

The average damage off a maximum roll (12+1+2d8) will probably kill you. If you're okay with something like 3% of all ogre attacks ending in an instant one shot fatality, it's okay I guess.

Edit Warghabl, the rules for RD are different in two different places. Getting smacked by an orge won't kill you. Probably.

Ghostwheel · Post by **Ghostwheel** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:29 am

Could you break down how you calculated the damage? I'm especially interested in understanding how you added in the RD damage where you add 1/2 the amount by which you beat the AC to damage.

And that might be right--I'm not sure since I don't understand the math at a glance. Could you break it down? And how come it doesn't really match the result I got before? Where in the numbers did I do incorrectly?

Thanks.

(Even if that is true, I'm not sure it shows that the game is too lethal, since on average the ogre will have 4 enemies beating on him, and the characters can use abort actions to deny some of the damage (though let's not add those for simplicity's sake), and he doesn't kill a PC in 1-2 hits.)

Remember: It's one-half the amount by which you beat AC. So at most, on a 20, the ogre against said fighter is doing 9 (Base) + 6 (RD) + 1 (Crit) + 2 (Str) - 8 (Protection) = 10--which, yes, is a ton of damage, but not enough to actually one-shot said fighter.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:33 am

RD is listed in two different places as working differently. The changes document says

Whichever douchebag wrote the fucking rules wrote:You add the difference between your attack roll and your opponent’s defense roll to the damage of your attack.

The OTHER place it is referenced says that you halve it. What the fuck is crap like this - I'm going to check the fucking changes bit to find the CHANGES to what I'm used to. Why LIE TO ME about what the change is.

Whoever wrote that changes summary is an asshole.

Frankly, that is fucking bullshit rules writing, but I've fixed it.

Btw: The most is 16+6+3-8, but that still isn't a one shot, so far call. The fighter is still boned though.

Ghostwheel · Post by **Ghostwheel** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:45 am

Right, that's if you don't only crit, but also roll maximum. Which is going towards the far end of probability, I think.

Kaelik: Updated previous post with list.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:48 am

Oh yeah, you're just going to lose in the grinder. I think the fighter might be better off without the called shot as well.

Ghostwheel · Post by **Ghostwheel** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:49 am

Could certainly be, or taking a -8 to attack to remove 5 protection from the ogre. Unsure how the numbers would break when taking RD into account. Do you have any idea on what a formula that took RD into account would look like as far as damage goes? I know DPR vs. AC is Chance to Hit x average damage or so.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:54 am

Anyway, I give up, there are to many undocumented changes outside of the changes list to actually do it right without reading the entire rules, and I cannot be bothered.

To calculate the damage scenarios yourself, do the following

Probability of hit * (Mean Weapon Damage + Weapon Adds + ((criticalrangeofweapon/ranged of hit values)*(critical multiplier of weapon-1))+ 1/4*(the difference between the lowest scoring 'to hit number on the d20' and 20)

That calculates mean weapon damage fairly accurately. also it appears you totally caculated the value of the fighters weapon damage on page 1 wrongly because he should have the same strength bonus as the orge, but you gave him 5 and the ogre 2.. which I have been using as well.

Ghostwheel · Post by **Ghostwheel** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:56 am

Let me know if you take another crack at it. That said, we still haven't shown that the combats are quite as lethal as people have insisted.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:59 am

This is mostly correct. I hate this rules write up which is fucking retarded. Why are all the modifiers to damage not included under the heading 'damage roles' Are they morons?

DPR For the fighter is .7 (chance of hit)*(7 (Weapon damage)+5 (Str bonus)+2 (Weapon Spec)+3.5 (RD)+.15 (Crit Bonus)-5 (Natural Armour)-(3*0.4) (Average reduction in protection from called shot, assuming I understand the rules)) = 8

I don't understand the called shot shit, and doesn't it provoke an AoO?

Anyway, afaik, I think you're better off taking the bonus to hit by which you become UNABLE TO MISS and your damage rises to 11.45 a round. And you don't intantly die to AoOs. In which case you'd actually win!

DPR For the Ogre = .65*(9+3+3+0.07-8) = 4.62

Fighter Average rounds to win= ~5.25 - dropping to 4 if you stop trying to do anything fancy.

Ogre Average Rounds to win= 4.4 (or 2.2 if I am reading the called shot rules right, which I am)

Fighter is fucked. And you are also a comedy retard if you use the called shot rules. You'd have to be genetically defective in game to do anything other than vanilla attack. The penalties are hideous and the benefits are not great.

And seriously, how badly written can these rules possibly be? It's an opus of confusion and despair.

A) The fighter is worse off on the offense if he tries a called shot. You'd have to be brain dead

B) The fighter is worse off on the defence! You'd have to be REALLY STUPID

C) You do actually do okay on the same game test!

Ghostwheel · Post by **Ghostwheel** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:00 am

Could you list out all the numbers and what they're referring to so we can be on the same page? I'm lost as far as some of them go...

Oh, for the str damage; the ogre only adds 1/2 Strength (+2) to damage. The fighter gets his full Strength to damage because he has Power Attack, so the numbers should be a little more off.

Ah, right you are on the AoOs. So without called shots it looks fine, right?

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:15 am

Yes, you are correct, the system is functional if you NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER do a combat maneuver of any sort.

Frank was very correct when he said that the optimal action is to 'Sword the dude' and never do anything else.

Fuck, negating the warriors armour with a called shot doesn't even make sense, ignoring that you die instantly to AoOs, you lose NET 4.58 DPS...

So you're attracting AoOs to make yourself worse, dropping your average damage by about 5 a round.

And the rules will let you spend MULTIPLE FEATS to negate the AoO part.. but it's still a very shit idea.

Seriously, it's a two feat change to make called shots go from a terminally bad idea to merely a very bad idea. Awesome!

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:26 am

Actually, I'm not sure it's functional - a minotaur is 1 CR more, but does a truely stupid amount more damage, with it's DPR pretty much doubling. A bit less.

Minatour DPR = .65*(10.5+5+3-8)+0.35*(10.5+5+2-8)+0.35*(0.375)

= .65(10.5)+0.35(10.5)+0.13

= ~11 (Once you factor in crit weapon damage bonus)

Which is a two round kill.

Warrior doesn't get that much extra damage potential I don't think.

The problem is that damage output increases but I don't see how the warrior can get that much extra protection.

Ghostwheel · Post by **Ghostwheel** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:38 am

*nod* As I mentioned above, big monsters are supposed to be damn scary for the most part. How does it compare to the most prevalently-sized enemies, other medium creatures who don't double HP?

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:48 am

ankylosaurus, babau, bralani, ettin, girallon, half-fiend minotaur, kyton, lamia, salamander, shambling mound, white dragon (young), will-o'-wisp, wood golem, woolly rhinoceros, wyvern, xill, xorn

Is the list of CR 6 monsters in the book.

What would you suggest? The big monsters just auto kill you, the puzzle monsters and anything with teleport.. just auto kills you. The babau is particularly funny.. but because it has +15 to hit and hits you on like, 4s, plus gets to count full RD not half RD it will snap you in half and kill you. DPR vs a level 6 fighter with full plate is almost 20. And you cannot hit it because it has darkness and you are a chump.

The stuff you can beat is not because you're a viable character, it's because a xill can no longer damage you in any way. You could beat a xill at level 3 and you'll still beat a xill at level 6.... unless it just runs away and shoots you with a bow until you die I guess.

Edit: Wait no, because it can hit you, just not do damage, the xill will kill you because it will keep going grab -> Venom inject until you fail the save and then die.

Ghostwheel · Post by **Ghostwheel** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:57 am

Hrmmm... will ponder the situation ponderously, and get more opinions, taking into account math/numbers thus far before making a decision.

Thanks for the help, cthulu.

On another note, how does it look vs. enemies with low/no racial HD and class levels? Goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, and so on? That might be a far bigger factor in the equation, since Large creatures are exceptionally rare in the setting.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:00 pm

It's a mirror match, with all that implies. 5 round kills? Maybe 4?

Ghostwheel · Post by **Ghostwheel** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:01 pm

So it actually works well there, and actually fulfills what I'm shooting for... hrmmm...

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:06 pm

Seriously though, you are going to end up with a party where everyone says 'I charge the other guy. I full attack' and nothing else ever.

Ghostwheel · Post by **Ghostwheel** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:10 pm

I don't think so--first of all, we have martial adepts allowed, so that takes care of it partially, and then there are rogues and the like who are going to have half-decent bonuses on attack rolls (+5 at 3rd level when flanking) making Mobility and/or Advanced Called Shot especially yummy for them. Alternatively you could use a glaive and use called shots when not in reach or the like. There are ways to make them work--especially when you're 4 people against a single foe, and you all attempt to blind/stun that one foe, for example.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:31 pm

Ghostwheel wrote:I don't think so--first of all, we have martial adepts allowed, so that takes care of it partially, and then there are rogues and the like who are going to have half-decent bonuses on attack rolls (+5 at 3rd level when flanking) making Mobility and/or Advanced Called Shot especially yummy for them. Alternatively you could use a glaive and use called shots when not in reach or the like. There are ways to make them work--especially when you're 4 people against a single foe, and you all attempt to blind/stun that one foe, for example.

Called shots are not worthwhile simply on the basis of doing as much per attack as a normal attack. The fact that they also cause you to explode when attempted is secondary to the fact that they do not work.

Cthulhu wrote:This is mostly correct. I hate this rules write up which is fucking retarded. Why are all the modifiers to damage not included under the heading 'damage roles' Are they morons?

This is why I gave up actually doing specific point by point math comparisons. The rule set is illegible and in places contradictory. I cannot tell how much damage people are supposed to do, for example. As you level, to-hit and damage goes up while defenses and hit points don't, so even if it doesn't start as rocket launcher tag (which I highly suspect it does based on what parts f the gibberish I can read), it will approach rocket launcher tag very quickly.

Cthulhu wrote:It's a mirror match, with all that implies. 5 round kills? Maybe 4?

Worse than that. Much worse. In the event of having multiple humanoids squaring off against each other it is an average of about 4 or 5 rounds (maybe 3 depending on how damage stacks) for each combatant to drop one opponent. In the event of actually having 4 PCs and a comparable number of enemies, then on average 0-2 people on each side will drop on the first round.

Remember, it's not just you doing a series of vanilla attacks (the only logical action in this), it's everyone on your team doing a vanilla attack every round. And you aren't taking average damage per attack, you're actually taking discrete hits and misses. So it's much swingier than you are implying. In reality, four people attack and 1-4 of them hit and it is entirely possible that more than one enemy hits the floor before the round is over. A run of bad luck and a TPK will develop extremely quickly any time anyone has like a spear or something.

-Username17